Users mailing list

[Laurent Pinchart]

Hello,

We've discussed this topic today. A few options are on the table, each
with pros and cons. I'll try to summarize them here.

1. Keep using the libcamera-devel mailing list

   Pros:
     - Easy to set up, as there's nothing to do.
     - Large number of subscribers, so likely to contain the knowledge
       required to answer user questions.
   Cons:
     - The -devel name implies this isn't for users, so it could create
       a psychological barrier.
     - High(ish) volume, can put off some users.
     - A large number of user questions could disturb the
       development-related discussions.
     - Difficult to reply to an old e-mail from before you subscribe to
       the list.
     - Apparently some people consider that mailing lists should be a
       thing from the past. I have no idea who those people are :-)

2. Create a libcamera-users mailing list

   Pros:
     - Easy to set up, infrastructure to manage mailing lists already
       exists for libcamera.org.
     - The list name reflects its purpose.
     - No risk of flooding the devel list with user questions.
   Cons:
     - There would be less developers subcribed to the list, so lower
       chances of getting answers until a wider pool of knowledgeable
       users appears.
     - Difficult to reply to an old e-mail from before you subscribe to
       the list.
     - Apparently people didn't get my point from 1., and still consider
       that mailing lists are a thing from the past.

3. Use gitlab.freedesktop.org issues

   Pros:
     - Easy to set up, gitlab is already there.
     - The people who disagreed with me in 1. and 2. will be happy about
       a non-mailing-list solution.
     - No risk of flooding the devel list with user questions.
     - Easy to reply to old messages.
   Cons:
     - There would likely be even less people watching issues, so even
       less relevant answers (I may be biased on this though).
     - We plan to possibly switch from bugzilla (on bugs.libcamera.org)
       to gitlab, user questions would therefore disturb bug processing.
     - gitlab issues are not a forum, the tool seems ill-fitted for the
       purpose.
     - Requires registering a gitlab.freedesktop.org account and getting
       it approved, which isn't an immediate process due to spam issues.

4. Create a libcamera forum

   Pros:
     - The people who dislike mailing lists may like this (unless we
       decide to use phpbb I suppose).
     - No risk of flooding the devel list with user questions.
     - Easy to reply to old messages.
   Cons:
     - More work to install and maintain.
     - There would likely be even less people watching issues, so even
       less relevant answers until a sizeable community forms.
     - Requires registering an account and logging in (I'm also biased
       here).
     - For people who prefer e-mail workflows, forums are disturbing.


The last option may be best in the long run, but at the moment none of
the core libcamera maintainers have the bandwidth to set up and maintain
a new piece of infrastructure. Among the other options, we think that
keeping a single mailing list is best for now. We don't expect the
user-related traffic to grow overnight to a level that would disturb
development. When it does, we can consider either the easy option of
creating a separate mailing list, or bite the bullet and move to a
forum.

Does this make sense for everybody ?

On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 06:12:37PM +0200, Jacopo Mondi wrote:
> On Fri, May 30, 2025 at 03:57:48PM +0000, Keeling, William wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your reply. The main issue is I think my needs (and those
> > like me) are different from the need of the developers of the
> > Libcamera; I am just trying to use the API and my questions are in
> > that vein. I do not have the knowledge to contribute to the library
> > or comment on the direction of the library and as such my questions
> > would be clutter in the libcamera-devel list. Since Libcamera as
> > become the standard for RaspberryPi I guess that there are others
> > hobbies like me that that are trying to become competun in C/C++ and
> > Libcamera.
> >
> > I will look at the alternatives but I see issues on the freedesktop
> > libcamera gitlab and being for bug and fixes not user how to
> > question. I will prepose to the Pi forum that a Libcamera section
> > be added. I understand that the developers do not have time or
> > desire to monitor 2 mailing list but I do not see the user-list
> > being for them to help us noobs. But it being a place that API
> > users help other API users.
> 
> Try ask the Raspberry Pi people, but they're overloaded with
> raspberry-pi specific questions, so I'm not sure a section there for
> generic libcamera questions, or even questions for other platforms,
> is the right place.
> 
> Did we mention that there's also irc/matrix for questions ?
> 
> > Just my thought and thanks for the tool I could not build my project
> > without it.
> 
> Thank you for the input and for getting in touch!
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jacopo Mondi <jacopo.mondi at ideasonboard.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 30, 2025 3:34 AM
> > To: Keeling, William <William.Keeling at nrg.com>
> > Cc: libcamera-devel at lists.libcamera.org
> > Subject: Re: Users mailing list
> >
> > On Thu, May 01, 2025 at 02:00:02PM +0000, Keeling, William wrote:
> > > Has libcamera.ora considered a user's mailing list in addition to
> > > the libcamera-devel list?  A higher-level API questions group
> > > would be helpful to folks like me who use the API but are nowhere
> > > skilled enough to contribute to the library.  Question like mine
> > > would only clutter up the important discussions of the
> > > libcamera-devel list.
> >
> > First of all sorry for the long delay. We discussed it this idea,
> > but then with travel and conferences we forgot to reply. Sorry about
> > this and thanks for the suggestion
> >
> > Can you elaborate a bit on what are the main concerns on using the
> > regular mailing list ? Is the patch traffic annoying for users in
> > your opinion ? Is it to get better visibility of user questions ?
> >
> > Apart from creating a separate mailing list, which we are a bit
> > concerned will have few subscribers and will then have less people
> > interested in replying, have you considered alternatives ? We could
> > use issues on the freedesktop libcamera gitlab mirror or even
> > consider a forum or an online platform ? Do you have preferences ?
> >
> > Thanks and sorry again
> >   j
> >
> > > Just an idea
> > > William Keeling

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart